Question:
What exactly is wrong with using film?
Fishmeister
2009-06-05 16:53:06 UTC
The amount of questions recently about photography have been concerning me...

(I hope that this is not conceived as a rant, I am genuinely interested)

It seems that the vast majority of people who decide to take up photography as a hobby/career go straight to digital and do not even think of using film. In fact many even insult film, saying that it is simply no good and that they are better off with digital. They seem interested in only blurry shots, with 'colour splash' or glitter or cartoon hearts adhered to them.

From a commercial and professional point of view, digital has many advantages. Cost of developing and printing, the cost of film, ability to change ISO with a push of a button.. Yes, we all know that... But the cost of good quality film equipment is so cheap that ANYBODY who wants to SERIOUSLY learn about photography would be stupid to ignore it. Having learned so much from both formats I am glad to say that I still use film, in fact I seem to use it more than Digital these days.

My question is this....


If you are not interested in using film... Why?.



I am interested in hearing why people today seem to dismiss film.

And as a quick note, I will include some photos I took last weekend.. the first roll of 120 B&W film that I had developed from my new purchase, my Yashica A medium format TLR.

I had more fun using this camera than any digital camera I have ever used!.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3559/3595619999_2c47e86ed5_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3595615599_b6c910db6c_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3624/3596421646_6ca753c361_b.jpg

.
Thirteen answers:
Ansell A
2009-06-06 04:17:29 UTC
Nothing whatsoever wrong with using film.

There are still some places which will only accept submissions with have been taken on film.

I still do a lot of my work with film.



As to why people don't use it these days for hobbiest purposes.

Simple really - convenience and cost.



Kids (and adults) these days want instant everything, if they cannot see the image immediately then it is not worth taking as far as a lot are concerned.



Digital means they have no requirement to actually learn about the more technical aspects of photography as it can all be "fixed" in photoshop.

In fact there are (as evidenced by questions on here) many who think that photography is photoshop rather than the skills of the photographer with the camera.





Good or bad, we live in a "fast food" world of instant gratification and instant communications.

People want things immediately, they want to pass things to their friends immediately and they want instant results.

Consequently they do not want the "hassle" of film. Buying the film, loading it, sending/or taking it to a lab, waiting for the results, getting duplicates, sending via "normal" mail, etc etc etc.



Digital photography has been one of the best and worst developments.

Best because it gives talented people the opportunity to do so much more with their work.

Worst because it means that every little oik with a camera and editing programme thinks they are "professional".
David M
2009-06-05 17:49:28 UTC
Most of the kids who are saying that they have no use for film are of an age where they may not even remember film cameras. Either that or they were not old enough to have ever used one.



I remember shooting some pictures at my sons school a few years ago. Every kid there was crowding around me to see the pictures. When I told them that they couldn't because it was a film camera they looked at me like I had three heads. Not one of them had any idea what I was talking about.



Young people today have been raised in an atmosphere of instant gratification like Fhotoace said. They don't remember a time without Ipod's, cell phones, Tivo and digital cameras. If you put yourself in their shoes film is an ancient technology. Why would you ever use it. Especially if you don't have access to a darkroom.



Now I still use film on occasion. Sometimes for fun and sometimes because it will get me the results I want better than digital. I can't see a day that I will give up my Hasselblad. Nor can I see ever buying a digital one. Maybe someday but I don't make enough money from my photography to justify buying a $40,000 camera. When it comes to my 35mm cameras I don't see much use in them other than nostalgia anymore. I am not ready to give them up but they don't get much use.



Oh and aren't blurry color accent shots considered professional?
Diverging Point
2009-06-06 05:49:00 UTC
I really WISH I had seen this question earlier! There is absolutely nothing wrong with film whatsoever. I love it. And I have a few points to make.



You're actually a lot younger than I thought you were. We're pretty much the same age. I'm 31.



First of all, people need to completely forget this misconception that only older people use film, or that it's a generational thing. I need to remind people about something...fishmeister, WE grew up surrounded by electronics. I've used computers my entire life. And the internet has been around for most of my life. I know all the emo kids on MySpace like to think they created the internet and the modern hi-tech world never existed before them. But the fact is, I was on the internet when I was a kid. (I went into a chat room for the first time in about 1995 or 1996 when I snuck into the computer lab at a university with some friends). We grew up with video games and CD players...and should I remind people that the kid who created Napster in the late 90's (the first peer-to-peer music downloading client) was our age. He would be about 29 or 30 now.



My whole point for saying all that is that WE also grew up with modern electronics. People seem to forget that. They think that the brainless teenagers of today are the only ones who ever used modern technology. Remember when WE were called the "MTV Generation" and "Generation Next"? And the whole "Information Age" and www started when WE were kids. And yet I love using film because it's a lot more fun and more challenging. It's not because I don't have experience with technology. As I said, I've grown up completely and absolutely surrounded by it. But I love using film. There's something about having images permanently captured onto something tangible, something that you can actually see and touch. And there's also something special about using a REAL all-metal film camera, with a mechanical shutter. When you fire the shutter and you know that you have just permanently captured a photograph and a moment of time has been burned onto film. There is no delete, it's there forever.



I'll take the snap of a mechanical shutter over the wimpy beep of a digital camera any day.



I also grew up with film. I've always liked taking pictures, ever since I was a little kid. But I didn't really become seriously interested in photography until maybe 2 or 3 years ago. When I was a kid, I mostly just used the simple point and shoot 110 and 35mm cameras that were popular in the 1980's and 1990's. But now I use completely manual exposure.



And I don't "photoshop" anything. I don't need to.



So my love of film is definitely NOT because I didn't grow up with technology. Far from it. In fact, you might say that it's partly because I get sick of it sometimes. From the time I was born, I've been surrounded by it. 24 hours a day. I've been surrounded by cheap, crappy stuff made of plastic and electronics my whole life. So when I actually picked up a vintage, all-metal camera, I was fascinated with it. I feel like I was missing out on something that I should have had. All my film cameras were made way before I was even born. But I feel more comfortable using a vintage 35mm SLR than I ever felt using a digital camera.



Keep shooting film, my friend.



--------



By the way, I think you would really like this topic on Photo.net. A lot to do with what you're talking about here ;)



http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00TLvE
gryphon1911
2009-06-05 17:55:03 UTC
You need to be careful in making those broad generalizations. Don't forget who you are talking to in these boards. People who either think they know what they are doing and don't, people young enough to be our kids or grandkids.

Then there are those of us professionals or serious photographers that come here to help.

I think you are too caught up in the former half.



I will say that I have nothing against film and I still have my first SLR - a Nikon N90s. I keep it because being in business, a client might require it.



I have switched completely to digital and I will say that without digital and how I have learned photography, I might not have been able to learn as fast as I have and started my business at all.



So far, I have never been asked to shoot strictly film. Most places I have worked with are wanting digital because all the printers and designers are needing them that way.



All I know is that I love photography, I love seeing peoples faces when they get their prints or get to view their proofs on the big display screen. I'll use any tools that help me keep my love for photography and keep the clients happy. If for some reason, someone invents a film that has the best dynamic range ever - like the same as the human eye - I'd switch to that if business need required it.



It's all relative in the end.
tiberiustibz
2009-06-05 18:42:45 UTC
There's nothing wrong. I'm 16. I have my own darkroom in my laundry room. I process C41 film in my sink, I run E6 if I have the time, and I'm doing quite well with RA4 printing using trays and an $80 dichro enlarger off ebay. I get good pictures. I suppose I am the outliar. I also have a few opinions which I'll share.



First, when starting off with photography many of us lack vision. We merely say "that stop sign looks cool!" and snap a picture of it. The majority of our pictures come out just bad, lacking substance and ingenuity or general coolness. We lack understanding of what works, such as the distinction that black and white photography has distinctly different uses than color does. At this point in our photographic career, digital has the advantage of being free. We can shoot, we can immediately see what works, and we know that bad shots are not a problem. This eliminates the fear to shoot lots of pictures, and helps us learn faster.



However, I hate digital. I took a photography trip a few years ago and returned with 2.5 thousand shots. I liked about 25. Also, I noticed that when "properly" exposed, the colors that were contained in the highlight regions of the image were blown to friggin hell. I had to dial back the exposure a few stops until the colors looked good and the screen then looked like muddy dog barf. The slides I got back from the trip out of my Yashicamat TLR and my Kodachrome from the Pentax K1000 just glowed. There was nothing to it.



I found that I couldn't print slides easily (my schools scanner is a trainwreck,) so I started shooting negatives. I had been warded off of major color work with the message that "it's toxic and difficult" but I guess I proved them wrong. My prints from Ektar 100 35mm negatives enlarged to 11x14 show no grain WHATSOEVER (litterally less grain than a 4x5 negative and a harder time grain focusing) and the colors glow. Nothing to it. And I don't have cancer...yet.



I also prefer the feeling of film. It makes you cut off the bad images, and the results you get back all have a higher degree of quality. When you see those and discard the bad ones, you are left with a very nice portfolio.



Who knows. Each to his own, but I like film and I don't care.



I also like waiting. I'm a firm believer that we live in a too impersonal world of cellphones and internet and firmly believe that the 70s would have been a better place to live in. When I want instant gratification I have fujiroid instant packfilm in my polaroid model 350 instant packfilm camera. That's another story but that camera shifts my vision and helps in visualizing the final image. People think it's amazing too.



To fhotoace or however you spell that: It's all too true. I love how the 4x5s turn the image over and backwards, forcing you to analyze the key elements of composition. It forces you to have vision, because those cameras are not fun to set up if the image ends up being bad. Have you visited apug.org?



ADDITION: I hear the "how much does 15 billion digital shots cost in film?" question all the time but to quote ken rockwell, you don't blow off 39 pictures of your feet in the parking lot twiddling settings and white balance or exposure when you're shooting 4x5. He says, truthfully, that film is cheaper than digital because the cameras are so expensive. You don't shoot 4x5s quickly, and that slow methodical process makes you think about the image before rather than after exposure and helps you make improvements in composition and perspective before you take the image. Nobody carries around a D1 anymore because technology is better and $10,000 later you have upgraded your camera twice compared with several hundred velvia 4x5s shot in a camera that's been working since the time of gallileo. I found that digital distracted me because in trying to get the (singular) image of the sunrise looking better on the screen I failed to see some better compositions that the camera wasn't pointed at.
2009-06-05 17:12:59 UTC
first... I am old enough to love shooting film. There are days when I enjoy nothing more than a walk thru the park carrying only my trusty old Canon A-1. On those day's I'm not trying to make money on photos. I'm just having fun.



but I think the love of digital comes with being raised in the age of technology. here are a few questions to consider....



what percentage of people alive today have actually heard a song played from a vinyl album with their own ears?



how many have had to actually get off the sofa to change the channel or adjust the fine tuning on the television?



how many people see 1000 digital snaps costing no more than a pair of AA batteries?



how many people consider the cost of film and processing to be prohibitive, especially in today's economy?



how many people think that being limited to a single ISO with each roll of film is too restrictive?



and most of all... what percentage of yahoo answers users are young enough to be in the demographic described above?



we live in a world where people feel a sense of self entitlement simply because they breathe. we live in a world of instant gratification where we can click a virtual button to do almost anything. film requires actual thought and learning and work. it is not part of the desires of the ME generation.
2009-06-07 05:33:36 UTC
I don't see a problem at all with using film. I use it most of the time. either 35mm or 120 in my holga. and a note to the one who says no teenager uses film YOUR WRONG. I am a teenager myself. I use film more than I use digital and even combine the two either scanning film in or actually combining film photos with digital photos in my manips. people today are just to lazy. They would rather spend £100's or £1000's on a digital camera which most of them have no idea how to use and take thoushands of pictures to end up with a generic shot then take the time to produce something unique (especially on the subject of infrared photography) which is better quality than any digital camera can produce. you can view my pictures here http://hornydevil666.deviantart.com/gallery/
OMG, I ♥ PONIES!!1
2009-06-06 03:49:11 UTC
Fishmeister, you're being a snob.



Not to dismiss film cameras (I'm 39 myself and started out with a Nikon EM) but digital is easier, in the long run it's cheaper, and for a lot of people asking questions here, even the results of a point & shoot are good enough. (Color splash, anyone?)



From a commercial and professional point of view, if you need the extra quality of a good b&w film, or the extra resolution of medium format, then sure, use that. In some cases film actually is better.



As for your music analogy, I converted everything to my computer long ago with a partial collection on my mp3 player. Here too, convenience can trump quality. And frankly, at a decent bitrate I can't hear the difference on my Grado SR80's.

---

heh heh, obviously an unpopular opinion.



Look guys, if you prefer to shoot with Yashicas etc. for the sheer enjoyment of it, good for you. Other people have different and equally valid priorities. Like a faster learning curve thanks to the instant feedback of a histogram.



With b&w 120 film, every shot is... what, about $0.40 for film plus the cost of developing. After just 1500 clicks a dSLR would pay for itself. So here's a better question: why SHOULD the general enthusiast be interested in film?

---

tiberiustibz,

You also have my deepest respect. At least, you did until the KR quote ;-)

How long does it take to shoot 1500 images? It depends. If you're into landscape photography and every shot requires you to spend a week on location waiting for perfect weather, you might never take 1500 photographs. On the other hand, if you're an internationally renowned street photographer like Garry Winogrand it takes just 20 days (he shot 3 rolls of film a day, every day.) Either way, there's nothing about a dSLR that prevents you from being deliberate.
Steve P
2009-06-05 18:53:46 UTC
Well... as I write this I see only one person who answered who is really who you were aiming your question at... i.e. RUSTY SPOON. Everyone else, including me, are kind of "on your side" as "older" photographers with experience with and a love of film. Not a lot of point in going into the whole film vs. digital thing once again, and that is what your question is reverting to.



I hope Rusty Spoon sees this answer. One thing he said bothers me. He said he loves Photoshop and cannot do that with film. That statement, of course as we know, is totally wrong and displays his lack of knowledge on how film is used in today's world. How did he think you got the photos you posted on the internet?



To Rusty Spoon... you most certainly CAN use Photoshop with film, and I would venture to say that in today's world, most film users do also use Photoshop. I know *I* do. I do not even get prints with any film I have processed at my lab. Just processing and high resolution scans to CD. I then open the photos in Photoshop just like you do with your digital camera and I can do "almost" anything with them that you can. True, I do not have the adjust-ability of RAW with film scans, but, I find I do not need it at all. I make a real effort to get exposure correct IN THE CAMERA. About all I do in Photoshop is some mild tweaking of overall color cast that can sometimes be slightly off in certain circumstances. If I want to take it into things such as multiple overlays and more intense Photoshop work, I can do that to my heart's content, just like you with your digital files..... because I AM using a digital file.... same as you.



I then can get them printed at any of the online digital labs... just like you do.



So now you may ask, why not just use a digital camera in the first place?



Because the dynamic range of medium format negative film is much better than digital.



Because, depending on how serious I want to get with the scanning, I can get a digital file from medium format film that would require something like a 50 megapixel camera to equal.



Because I like having the archival method of negatives rather than "data" on some medium that can always fail or has to be changed due to technology changes over the years.



Because my camera is simple and intuitive to use, and will be that way for as long as I want to keep it. No constantly being bombarded with manufacturers trying to brainwash me that I just HAVE to get rid of my outdated rubbish piece of junk two year old digital camera body for the latest and greatest new DSLR. Then, in one or two years, THAT camera "needs updating". Absolutely asinine.



Ok... I'm getting off into the film vs. digital debate here myself and that is not what I intended.



By the way... I have a large collection of vinyl records too!



steve



EDIT: I see "tiberiustibz" posted his answer while I was writing mine. WAY TO GO! I wish you were the rule rather than the exception.
Candid Chris
2009-06-05 17:18:32 UTC
Wrong!?!?! There's nothing wrong about using a film camera, its like driving an old VW, most of the time it gets you there and is easy on the mileage.



Fun!?!?! We don't need no stinking fun!



I like the flowers on the pants. But you need to crop the first two for better composition.



ADDED: Upon further review, yes, you are correct. The square on the second post works well, but I do like the little lad running out from the right on a horizon PR better.

Neither here nor there, they are your pix.



ADDED: (some more): :) How I express MYSELF is ME, How WE express OURSELVES is OURS, how others express THEMSELVES is THEIRS.

This is not a different world in which all of US are that different, it's ALL a matter of perspective.

I see things differently (due to my height and older age) than a 13 year old. No problem
?
2016-04-06 09:57:14 UTC
Colour film had been available for some years before WW2. Colour movies were also made during the war - William Wyler's colour documentary on the Memphis Belle came out in 1943, and it certainly wasn't the first.
?
2009-06-05 21:37:17 UTC
there is absolutely nothing wrong with film, in fact I prefer using both digital and film, it's just that in this age, we have the technology to go all digital, it's taking over quite quickly too, some say it's ruining photography, that it will be harder to get a job as a photographer because of it.
2009-06-05 19:08:26 UTC
people that say film is wonderful and dont use the alternative processes crack me up, its like they are saying swimming is good but i only get my feet wet



so im a film fan from way back, alternatives are my secret passion



however for the people you are asking about the cost and hassle of purchasing, developing and scaning are the downfalls, also most new camera buyers cant be bothered with loading film every 36 shots, or scanning and purchasing and loading every 36 frames



digi is about 50 times more practical for 99% of photographers in 2009



for large reproduction large transparencies are brilliant, for fine arts black and white large format black and white is briilliant, for everythig else i dont know why anyone in their right mind would shoot 35mm neg or pos film when 35mm full frame dslrs are the equal in quality and far superiour for regular usage



each to their own, i use film for important stuff the rest digi is far better as a recording tool, 35mm film is the past to me now


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